Vote for war

[eproxy]

Pantheon seem to think we're all already in the war. I've had two mails from them about taking a Digg players isles.

[Clausewitz]

ashimar said:

I see people who don't really know speculate and I know there are people who actually know because they have seen or heard who cannot openly speculate because as a matter of fact for all official purposes they are not supposed to know these things, so ; hush hush' they don't know and if you think that they do they would have to deny.

However, what can be said is this: does anybody remember who Chamberlain was and what he said to the British people about Germany ? Striking similarity.

'"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time."

Maybe I haven't had my morning caffine yet, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here...

[Arminius]

eproxy said:

Pantheon seem to think we're all already in the war. I've had two mails from them about taking a Digg players isles.

Yes, same here.

[RapSO]

Resist has also noted that our merger would indicate our entrance in the war between DIGG and Pantheon, and asked if we wanted them to hold the actions against Rahein and join the fight against DIGG. I told them to proceed against Rahein, because we're still organising.

[Arminius]

I don't think 16:12 is a clear enough vote, to be honest.

[Clausewitz]

As of right now, Morkin has 61 members. Why have only 28 voted?

Seems as significant a vote as we may ever have...

EDIT: An additional 31 if you count Lorgrim

EDIT 2: I just realized KoM-level access members cannot see this board so obviously cannot vote.

EDIT 3: In the United States it takes a 2/3 vote by Congress to "Declare War". Granted, it hasn't been done since 1941, but still it's there, and still considered well within the confines of "democracy". "Democratic" does not mean "majority rules", but rather there people are represented and have a voting influence on the political system. So I can understand Oliver's concern...

[McGoogus]

I went ahead and sent a mass mail to the 61 members minus KoM, pushing them towards this thread.

[eproxy]

Can some of the KoM members that have joined [Morkin] see this thread? I think Shendemiar already mentioned on page one he forgot to change all their permissions

As for war... I'll do it in the future but not now. My older ocean isles are as strong as ever but my main Digg ocean isles (o4/5 to boot) are at about 60% strength compared to last week (3.1k out of 8.6k lws lost over 14 core isles and 6 new ones (I still have 2 to colonise as well)).

Added; I do know however that if we don't do it soon then we probably won't ever and I'm kicking myself in the face for voting no :\

[Harlequin]

I vote with Arminius/Shendo/Inyati - whatever they want then I'll carry it out.

[RapSO]

shendemiar said:

shendemiar said:

Im concerned this leaking out too soon. So i oppose it, but Fingal and Rapso should be informed...

AAARGGHHH!

I just remembered i intended them to be able to see the Luxor board.. like two months ago! And i had completely forgotten! Damn me.

Anyway, KoM admins (Fingal, RapsO) now have access to regular Luxor board

Besides me and Fingal no KoM members have access, and because of the leak risk are not supposed to have access to the vote with the same timeframe as Luxor members. I guess it could be interesting to see if they'll tip the scale one way or another though, unless Luxor and Morkin needs more time to vote.

[Null]

natmus said:

I don't think it's about a split anymore. I think we have to go to war to make the statement that not even an alliance of DIGG's size can stand against the rest of the server. As such, the mega-alliances' time is over, and they should disband.

If we have to apply some forcible attitude adjustment to selected DIGG members to make them see reason, so be it.

War!

So is it about a split, or is it not? Everyone assumes Digg are only out for domination, that they'd never split after this war. They were talking about it before Pantheon came around, does that sound like an alliance only hell bent on Domination of the server? I'm sure plenty in Digg want nothing more than to remain #1, but clearly there are reasonable people over there who see what their current situation may do to the server.

Pantheon tried to FORCE Digg to split, backing them into a corner. Has anyone even TRIED a peaceful solution to the problem? All of Pantheon's attempts were essentially while they had a gun to Digg's head, with the threat of their own numbers. We are a PEACEFUL alliance. Why are we going to try and war to get our way, without even attempting other possibilities?

If we end up staying out of this war, I say we talk to Digg. Tell them we where THIS close to joining on Pantheon's side. Not because we dislike Digg admins, or specific members of Digg, or because we have any desire to destroy Digg, or become #1, but because Digg's over dominate position is a threat to the servers health. Remind them that many of you have seen the results it can have, over in .uk. They need to hear this from powerful alliances WITHOUT using the threat of war to show them. I see no reason we can't try and HELP them find a reasonable solution, without using war to do it.

Bottom line is...we haven't even seemed to consider it...War is not the only way...we are a peaceful alliance, why aren't we attempting to play it that way.

[Arminius]

I have contacted the Digg admins about exactly that. I posted some replies I got from phil and scoots in various threads here. Apparently all admins agree that they'd split at some point, most likely *after* the war.

But Pantheon has made any internal discussion of splitting very hard, as it is now perceived as giving in to aggression.

I don't know. I'm not sure how serious they really are about splitting, but they must see that life will be boring if it's just them. Should we enter the war we should make it clear that we'll be out again as soon as they split.

My difficulty is that I don't want to threaten them, "split or we'll join the war", as that won't help...

[Null]

arminius said:

My difficulty is that I don't want to threaten them, "split or we'll join the war", as that won't help...

Joining Pantheon in the war to try and force them to split seems like an even worse option...

We don't need to make this a threat. This was my point. Digg won't give in based on threats and war. We've seen that with their reaction to Pantheon. Why not make it clear we WON'T join the war (voting seems to be going that way), but were damn close because of all the reasons they need to split (already discussed). Let them finish this war 1 v 1, but make it clear, we were very close to jumping in, as were others, because our members are not happy with the current situation of the server. As you said, they've got to realize it will be a boring IK if its just them.

[Clausewitz]

Part of me says there's so many passionately opposed to it (Phil included, he just uses "I go with what the DIGGers want" since that is convenient at the moment), that they are merely telling us what they think we want to hear to keep us out of this war. They know that now is their most vulnerable, and if they can survive Pantheon, then they can tell us to bugger off and we can't have nearly the impact if we actually took the military route.

In other words, they're pouring honey in our ears and giving empty promises because they're desperate to keep us out of this fight.

But the other side of me says, if we're serious about wanting to actually play on a healthy server, the only way to achieve this is to let DIGG break up of their own accord and be our dormant, isolationist selves who arm ourselves to the teeth to avert all aggression against us.

From my perspective, if we're going to war, we're doing it because we'd rather not play than play with them as our overlords. If we're going to war thinking "rationally" that we can force them to split, defeat them, or any other ambitions, we're in for some serious disappointment...

[Aesir]

I think it wouldnt hurt us to get a list of Pantheon members who are actually actively participating in this war. It seems like a GREAT bulk of their membership is doing nothing.