Clausewitz
Luxor Member
Veni. Vidi. Vici. Mori.
Posts: 1,437
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Post by Clausewitz on Oct 31, 2007 12:15:28 GMT
Alright. When's the deadline for this vote? Stoners still need to be moved, and it's not worth sending fleets on 10 hour trips if this goes hot in 5 hours...
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Arminius
Morkin Admin
Ich bin Bl?cher
Posts: 4,148
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Post by Arminius on Oct 31, 2007 12:28:33 GMT
Just to counter balance the argument...
Both sides use dirty tricks...
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Shendemiar
Morkin Admin
Mmmm, free goo!
Posts: 6,751
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Post by Shendemiar on Oct 31, 2007 12:28:42 GMT
Im confident that strong isles can be sent stoners to. This wont cook over just yet, and strong isles wont be taken right away.
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RapSO
KoM Admin
Howdy
Posts: 608
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Post by RapSO on Oct 31, 2007 14:01:34 GMT
I understand the people who doesn't want to go to war for the sake of old Phoenix and FOIMP players, but I've voted for the war because like other people, this seems like the last opportunity to take down DIGG. Having said that, I know that I'm not at high risk being located where I am, but I would hope that DIGG has enough work to do with Pantheon, that we won't become a primary focus. I would also hope that us entering the war might bring in perhaps Empire and . |D:., further removing focus from us. Even though I realise that DIGG might see us as the primary enemy bringing in massive support that might crumble if we're taken out. No matter what it would put them under extreme pressure. On a curious note, who's controlling the "cowl" account? I know he was in Corleth for some time, and the original cowl was one of my first mentors in the game, but he said he sold the account.
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Aesir
Luxor Member
The Wolf
Posts: 200
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Post by Aesir on Oct 31, 2007 19:14:04 GMT
as a southern oceaner, i almost have to vote no solely b/c im outnumbered like 20-1 in isles down here.. and I'm a good distance away from upper ocean supply lies. Aeros, Kae and myself among others will most certainly have more than our hands full just trying to stay alive, let alone inflict damages.
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Null
Luxor Member
Don't Tread on Me
Posts: 481
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Post by Null on Oct 31, 2007 20:20:46 GMT
So when is the deadline for this vote? Currentlty 40% are against. However it seems based on other threads/comments this is going forward regardless?
In regards to KoM, if perhaps not giving them a vote in this, they should at least be given an option to leave/stay behind before any actual fighting starts. If they don't have a say in the decision, they should at least have the option of not going forward with it.
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Post by lemming on Oct 31, 2007 21:18:31 GMT
I am conflicted in making my vote. I certainly don't want to go to war for the sake of old Phoenix players. So my decision must be weighed against the arguments to take down DIGG. In this, it seems we have 2 options, as it is clear that war with DIGG is inevitable.Option 1: Goto war now (while some of our rank are weakened)Pros: - Our joining the fray may prompt some of our allies to join in?
- DIGG players, already embroiled in the conflict, have been taking losses and will therefore be weakened
Cons: - Many of our rank are weakended (through recent campaigns), and are at significant risk
- Having other alliances join in will prompt DIGG's allies to join in
- The war front would be wide open
- Once the flood gates are opened, and allies start joining the war, it will be all on. No place on the map will be safe!
Option 2: Wait some time for them to rebuild and then go war.Pros: - The longer Pantheon can hold out, the more damage (be that direct or though defense) they inflict on [DIGG].
Cons: - Will also give DIGG the opportunity to (re)build fleets/armies
I need to think some more on this (and have to goto work now), so will edit later today. Hope it at least provides some points for discussion...EDIT: Ok, have thought some more and considered the additional comments. DIGG has from the start of this server (when listed on the Dig.com site) stated that their main goal in this game was to dominate/own the server. I fully expect them to continue with the juggernaut that they have set into motion. Honestly, why would they stop now that they have the momentum to achieve their goal? That said, and with a clearer head, I have voted no to joining the war now. As already stated by others, I think we should show the same courtesy and stay out of the conflict which is between DIGG and Pantheon (at the moment). We'll get our turn soon enough. EDIT: Forgot to mention (because it goes without saying), I will of course abide by the decisions of our leaders
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Null
Luxor Member
Don't Tread on Me
Posts: 481
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Post by Null on Nov 1, 2007 3:19:12 GMT
Ok, one more post on this subject, then I'm done, I promise. And regardless of outcome, I'll be joining whatever the alliance is decided. If its to fight, I fight, and perhaps in the end get some more free time for RL needs.
Our entire plan is based on two assumptions:
1) We can force Digg to split if we enter this war
2) Digg will NOT ever split if they are victorious against Pantheon.
We are willing to commit everything we have based on these two assumptions. Correct?
Comments about these assumptions:
#1 It appears Digg was discussing a split before Pantheon ever formed.
- Snippet from Clauses fairwell speech
"Advancing propositions about a possible split, Werddrew pursued his standard armchair-criticisms – offering nothing productive, and simply critiquing the work of others. I had spent months upon months to accomplish something I considered noteworthy, and there were others, such as Loafnut, who had also put in substantial degrees of work."
- I believe it is safe to agree that Digg was considering a split at some point prior to Pantheon forming. Agreed?
#2 - Digg claims that when Pantheon formed, with the purpose of trying to force Digg to split, it in turn convinced Digg they should not split at this time due to the new threat.
- Lets think about this one. Digg discusses that perhaps a split is a good idea. They are at least talking about the topic. Then Pantheon comes along and essentially says, "split or else". Of course Digg is going to react the way they did. No one likes to be FORCED to do anything, even if its something they may have already been considering.
- A snippet from our forums on the topic -
"The problem I see is that no one likes to be given an ultimatum. If we tell DIGG to split or else, they're probably not going to split just for the sake of their pride. What if someone told the Morkin groups to drop our pacts with each other or else? We'd tell them to shove it."
#3 Its been stated before, that Digg is more resolved now than they ever have been, because its now an "us vs the world" mentality. The attempt to force them to split has strengthened their resolve to stick together. So what makes us think we can force this on them via more war? I can't find the quote, but I remember Clausewitz specifically stating "Digg will never split now" or to that affect.
If this is the case, yet that is our final goal, how can we still hope to achieve it?
#4 I think we can agree Digg was at least talking of a split (even if just at admin levels) before this ever started. Clause has confirmed this himself. Why is it so out of the realm of possibility, that after seeing nearly half the server (Pantheon) attacking them because of what they have become, and them losing 90% of their allies, that Digg wouldn't again pick up the talks of how to fix their situation? - Snippet somewhat related, by Clause -
"Pantheon wins, they break up. DIGG wins, they break up. However, neither is willing to break up first, there's alot of hostility, and hence the war is inevitable. From a "big picture" perspective, I really don't see how a victory by either side is a bad thing. "
Honestly, what is Digg going to do once the finish with Pantheon? Will they split? Will they come after us? Don't you think that if they DO come after us, its a more honorable reason for us to fight, and a more honorable way to go out, fighting for what would be a just cause, instead of the "Digg is the boogyman, they are ruining the server" and all the other BS Pantheon has been trying to drum up? I'm not disagreeing that it wouldn't be nice to see Digg taken down a notch, but based on above assumptions, that Digg isn't going to be FORCED to split any time soon, and thats our only way for victory, it seems fighting another day would be the way to go.
A few random quotes concerning our planned actions:
"In my mind, the Orc campaign has changed the circumstances. DIGG stayed out of our fight, when we all know damn well they wanted the Orcs to kick our teeth in. My personal sense of honor tells me that the same courtesy should be returned. I know my vote would be different in that poll, given recent events."
"Thank you for the note. It is quite unfortunate that we have arrived at this. I am beginning to think these suicide and the upcoming war may be the thing that begins the end to the server. Even if/when digg splits, there are going to be too many really powerful players/small alliances, and they will begin to rule the server."
"If it's a Pantheon v. DIGG straight fight, to be honest, I don't really see a place for us getting involved. However, if one side or the other starts calling in Pacts, then we may indeed find a place as a "balancing force". "
The bottom line is, how confident do we feel in these two main assumptions? Personally, I feel 0 confidence in the first one. The second one is much more up in the air, and seems to be fueling most peoples desire to fight NOW. Just remember, its still an assumption....one that we are betting EVERYTHING on...
Edit: And apologies if anyone feels they were misquoted, it was not my intent.
Edit: One last thing, it seems to me the biggest blunder Pantheon made was trying to FORCE Digg to split by merging. Everything that happened after that was under forced conditions from Digg's perspective. We seem to be trying to head down the same path.
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Clausewitz
Luxor Member
Veni. Vidi. Vici. Mori.
Posts: 1,437
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Post by Clausewitz on Nov 1, 2007 3:32:22 GMT
Exalt for an excellent breakdown and clearly doing your homework.
However, I would simply ask for caution in putting tantamount faith on my words. I spent alot of time on the inside over there, and have a thorough understanding of the way DIGG works - but by no means does that make me infallible on all-things-DIGG. Just because they haven't surprised me yet doesn't necessarily mean they won't.
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kae
Luxor Member
Posts: 638
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Post by kae on Nov 1, 2007 4:15:18 GMT
I voted yes. But it's for war in a very different sense than most people are currently thinking. Shen knows my lines of thought in regards to this war, and mostly I think people need to stop thinking about the losses.
Goodness knows I'll be one of the hardest hit, but I'm ok with that.
Joining, and 'declaring' war is an internal thing. We merely want to raise speculation among the other alliance as to our actions, which is why we are all supposed to keep our mouths shut.
This is not a pretty situation no matter how you look at it, and we find ourselves in a precarious position. On one hand, we could stay out of it entirely, but then people are assuming we are next. But the rest are assuming that DIGG will split. Assumptions are never good.
The merge was a good idea. Props to the admin team on getting that done. It shows that Morkin is paying attention, and that we are ready. I think it would be foolish for us to enter the fray without a good reason, because it is not the Morkin way. But I think it is equally foolish to stand on the sidelines and twiddle our thumbs while we build fleets. They MUST see action. DIGG has no idea how weakened we are. Most people in other alliances I talk to have weaker fleets than our 'weak' ones.
This leads me to the reason I said yes for 'war.' DIGG has to know that we mean business. They have to know that the entire thing is coming to a head, and as a conversation I had earlier today went, that this war is not about two alliances, but about personal enjoyment. DIGG has to come to the realization that if they as individuals want to continue to enjoy this game, they will have to split. And because of the recent events, they have to see a unified front from the other alliances. Pride has already entered this equation, and so the pride has to take a backseat if this is ever going to be fixed.
I will follow the admin's team lead into the very depths of the earth if that is what is asked of me. They have proved themselves to be level-headed, wise, and cautious about moving forward. I feel strongly that we need to give them the trust and respect they have earned and let them view our comments and the make a decision.
So my vote yes, is a vote for the admin team.
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Freiegeister
Morkin Member
'Blasphemy is a victimless crime' - Dawkins
Posts: 1,126
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Post by Freiegeister on Nov 1, 2007 5:15:37 GMT
Two comments...
Firstly, due to the Digg Effect they have managed to open and dominate the newer oceans. Once they bring all those new islands up to speed there is no reason to stop them driving everyone else out. Digg are not a benevolent alliance; they seek to dominate. Would they stop there, probably not.
Secondly, I don't see any reason to just build fleets infinitely as on .co.uk. I have a very nice 3.6k LW fleet and a number of islands with 20k spears there, no need to do that on .com. This is a war game? Or is it really a social network, and people's island counts/score is akin to how many friends they have? Let's make this game fun!
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Post by ashimar on Nov 1, 2007 7:06:21 GMT
I see people who don't really know speculate and I know there are people who actually know because they have seen or heard who cannot openly speculate because as a matter of fact for all official purposes they are not supposed to know these things, so ; hush hush' they don't know and if you think that they do they would have to deny.
However, what can be said is this: does anybody remember who Chamberlain was and what he said to the British people about Germany ? Striking similarity.
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Arminius
Morkin Admin
Ich bin Bl?cher
Posts: 4,148
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Post by Arminius on Nov 1, 2007 10:10:41 GMT
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Arminius
Morkin Admin
Ich bin Bl?cher
Posts: 4,148
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Post by Arminius on Nov 1, 2007 10:14:11 GMT
I'm not Chamberlain... but I'd suggest that we tell everybody that our aim in this war is to put pressure on Digg to split. We will fight them until they split, and as soon as they split we will cease hostilities. We would just have to define what would constitute a satisfactory split, presumably not five of them making a Digg-2 alliance.
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Natmus
Morkin Admin
Fight the power!
Posts: 4,518
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Post by Natmus on Nov 1, 2007 10:23:10 GMT
I don't think it's about a split anymore. I think we have to go to war to make the statement that not even an alliance of DIGG's size can stand against the rest of the server. As such, the mega-alliances' time is over, and they should disband.
If we have to apply some forcible attitude adjustment to selected DIGG members to make them see reason, so be it.
War!
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