Perun
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Issa (Vis) [1:76:24]
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Post by Perun on Dec 30, 2003 0:47:08 GMT
This is ridiculous: I couldn't get refreshment by different lakes by different lords taking different amount of time (even whole days) for a whole turn. Recently I avoid taking breaks by lakes and go for citadels if they are near enough. Even keeps. Lakes are just not useful enough. Probability should be 50%, not 5%.
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Post by Old Shendemiar on Dec 30, 2003 0:56:20 GMT
I must oppose.
Getting full refreshment allmost automatically makes the game too blend. Getting it should be miracle to be very happy about, not the way "i'm upset because i didn't get it in one day"
Getting waters of life should ratherly made even more difficult, and thus making players use citadels & keeps more, and thus making the map more startegic. No you can refresh anywhere anytime, no planning needed.
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Matija
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Post by Matija on Dec 30, 2003 7:38:20 GMT
I think the way it is at the moment is OK. Sometimes you get it at first try, and sometimes it takes 3 turns or even more.
Making it more common would be unrealistic and decreasing the percent would make lakes unusable.
But maybe the percents could slightly vary from lake to lake? Not randomly from game to game, though, I think, since a single game is not enough to determine where a variation is in favour and where it isn't.
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Perun
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Issa (Vis) [1:76:24]
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Post by Perun on Dec 30, 2003 20:02:49 GMT
I would agree if some lords were involved. But ALL lords that tried to refresh?!? Or maybe I had a REALLY bad luck that turn...
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Matija
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Post by Matija on Dec 30, 2003 20:47:37 GMT
I often use lakes. I bring the whole army, and after about three or four turns more then 80% of lords find the waters of life.
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Post by Old Shendemiar on Dec 30, 2003 21:02:11 GMT
I do it also... And it's not in harmony what it think of midnight... It's just not very convincing to get 20000 men totally refreshed in one day.
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Matija
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Post by Matija on Dec 30, 2003 21:17:47 GMT
It NEVER takes only a day. You must be extremly lucky.
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Post by Old Shendemiar on Dec 30, 2003 21:29:37 GMT
Ok, i doesnt. But most of the lords will get it in one full day. Usually there is someone unfortunate who will stay there for more than one day.
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Matija
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Post by Matija on Dec 30, 2003 21:43:07 GMT
My experience is different: only about half of them might get it in a day. And a single lord might take as much as four days - or get it immediately. A day or two on the average.
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Matija
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Post by Matija on Dec 30, 2003 21:44:49 GMT
I think that changing the chance would have much impact on gameplay. Can't decide if for better or worse, but I already like it as it is.
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Post by celebaglar on Dec 30, 2003 23:33:39 GMT
Well, my take on it is that lakes are way too significant because of the waters of life, which is not at all realistic. It may have been necessary in LoM and DDR due to shortcomings in design, but it never felt right.
IMHO, R&R should be found by resting at strategic locations, with the effectiveness based on the type of location:
(In decreasing R&R value):
Citadels Keeps, Villages Lakes (and snowhalls, but only for small armies) Ruins any other location
This should be on a per-army basis, so each army gets the usual amount of recuperation no matter how many other armies are present.
The recuperation would be available by default (i.e. a "seek" would not be required)
If magical relief is to be found it should be rare and limited, and should not in be able to turn a whole war around in a matter of days.
Here's how I'd do it - all of the below would require a "seek" - : I'd allocate four lakes randomly at the beginning of the game (one in each starting quadrant). These would carry the Waters of Life, with a daily dosage equivalent to refreshing a single army from utterly exhausted to utterly invigorated. If more than one army tries to refresh at that location in the same day, the dosage would have to be shared equally between them. This would prevent the mass refreshment of entire hosts at a lake within a few days. The dosage is renewed each day, so a long stay at one of these locations can replenish an huge massed army, but it ought to take considerable time.
Of the remaining lakes, I'd allocate the following randomly at the beginning of every day:
25% of them with Waters of Life 25% of them with poisoned waters the rest with nothing
Again both waters of life and poisoned waters would work on a dosage basis as described above.
I realise this would change gameplay somewhat, but I much prefer the idea of having to plan ahead and using important strategic points like strongholds rather than just getting refreshments at any old lake.
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Post by Old Shendemiar on Dec 30, 2003 23:52:16 GMT
I couldn't agree more with Celebaglar.
I've written many similiar comments, and first i thoug about pasting them here, but those are scattered around, and there no really need to do it, as he said it all.
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Post by Old Shendemiar on Dec 30, 2003 23:59:44 GMT
Specially i like the random lakes idea, that would add some spice to the games...
Shouldnt be too difficult to apply either, (if the equal dividance is dropped)
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Post by celebaglar on Dec 31, 2003 4:29:22 GMT
Specially i like the random lakes idea, that would add some spice to the games... Shouldnt be too difficult to apply either, (if the equal dividance is dropped) Well, the equal divison was only intended for the four permanently magical lakes (in fact this should not be "four", but equal to the number of players). The rest don't need to be evenly spread because they are changed daily and the random element evens things out over a period of time. Of course, someone may get some outrageous luck one day, but that's the luck of the draw.
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Matija
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Post by Matija on Dec 31, 2003 7:02:21 GMT
I don't understand how you mean the dosage to work. One army searches, then all of them get it, proportionally? I wouldn't like that.
But perhaps the solution might be in making WoL less potent, only giving thrice the points of shelter?
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