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Post by celebaglar on Dec 31, 2003 7:51:01 GMT
I don't understand how you mean the dosage to work. One army searches, then all of them get it, proportionally? I wouldn't like that. No, an army would have to search before it gets. Say you have armies A, B and C and they all reach the lake. Armies A and B seek at the lake, but C does not. Armies A and B get half the dose each, C gets nothing. If only army A seeks, it gets a full dose and feels ready to chew rocks in the morning. If armies A, B and C all seek, they only get a third of the dose each. The effect is that if you have an army of ten lords and you've run them into the ground either fighting or by forced march, then it will essentially take you the best part of ten days to have them all up and running rather than two or three as would happen under current rules unless I'm mistaken. That is, if you happen to be at one of the magic lakes. If you are at a normal lake, it will only have juice once every four days on average (and one of the other days the water would be poisoned), so it would be impractical to expect to soup up your horde at the lake. What this means is that unless you discover and capture your opponent's magic lake, you'll need to capture a Citadel to use as a base of operations if you want to have an effective massed army for any length of time. The tactic of hiking your 20 lords to the nearest lake and having all of them repeatedly seek until they get topped up really stinks IMHO, from both strategic and realism points of view. The sooner it's eradicated the better. |
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Matija
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Post by Matija on Dec 31, 2003 9:26:53 GMT
It still doesn't make sense to me. A and B can't seek at the same time. Let us say A seeks first and gets the full dose. Then B seeks. What happens? B gets a half-dose and A reverts by half dose towards tired?
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Perun
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Post by Perun on Dec 31, 2003 10:32:10 GMT
B gets a half-dose and A reverts by half dose towards tired? No. You just move A one step away, and voila. Then move B, refresh another, and so on. Bad idea. Nevertheless, I agree with essence of previous posts. So let me reiterate my thoughts: - Lakes shuldn't be that potent. Should act like keeps or citadels act now.
- There's no need for "special lakes". We already have citadels as gathering points anyway. And JY should implement some sort of random lake generator for different-than-4-player games, which is not very likely to happen any time soon.
- Different from now, lakes should always give refreshment, but only once a day per army.
- Seek at lake should be required, and should always take 3 hours.
- Citadels should be major refreshing points. That way their strategic value is additionally increased.
- Keeps and villages should be minor refreshing points for armies, major for armyless lords.
- Citadels', villages' and keeps' refresh rate is good as it is.
- Citadels, keeps and villages should always give refreshments, but only once a day per army.
- Seek at citadels, keeps and villages should be required, and should always take 3 hours for keeps and villages, and whole day for citadels.
- No other place should give refreshment (think about it - what's to find in ruins or liths or whatever in the wildreness).
- There should be option to rest desired amount of time in hours (or even halves of an hour) during gameplay. That way we could, for example, travel 2 hours, get exausted, rest for 3 hours and continue until sundown. Just like in a real word.
Yeah, I think that's it. |
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Post by celebaglar on Dec 31, 2003 10:50:22 GMT
It still doesn't make sense to me. A and B can't seek at the same time. Let us say A seeks first and gets the full dose. Then B seeks. What happens? B gets a half-dose and A reverts by half dose towards tired? Ah, sorry, I see I've left out one crucial detail without which it wouldn't make any sense (or have too many workarounds to mention): seeking at lakes (and finding something magical) should eat up the rest of the day. This means that the refreshment allocation can be done at the end of turn and therefore shared between seekers. However, I'd agree with Igor: there's no real need for magical refreshment at all. Make lakes always give refreshment, but in accordance to the earlier scale (less than villages and more than ruins) What can be special about lakes is this: To get refreshment at citadels, keeps and villages (and ruins) the army would need to stay there for the rest of the day - same as with resting on the plains. At lakes the refreshment would only take part of the day so the army would get a chance to move on afterwards (time allowing). This way lakes will give aid to the desperate, but won't turn the tide of wars. |
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Matija
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Post by Matija on Dec 31, 2003 10:59:44 GMT
All sensible ideas, Igor. However, I still have a few comments.  - I agree lakes should be less potent, but still more then citadels and keeps - they don't give protection the strongholds offer. In fact, lakes might actually increase the voulnerability of defending armies - they get cornered by the water edge without possibility to retreat. Which leads me to another thought: make retreat from lakes impossible.
- I agree that seeks should always be required, even if the benefit is always granted.
- I don't think seeks at villages should always grant a refreshment (except for single lords) - the peasants might have seen you coming, and run away in fear. However, I'd retain multiple searches in villages. The more you search, the more hidden stores you might discover.
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Perun
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Post by Perun on Dec 31, 2003 11:09:08 GMT
Good point. Still not convinced 'bout their potency, though.
Another good point.
Although, if someday in distant future there's an "area of control" feature, then villages in one player's area would always give his armies refreshment, but for other players - zippo. Just a thought.
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Perun
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Post by Perun on Dec 31, 2003 11:15:11 GMT
Impossible. And if you get exausted? You'll wait for the end of the turn and then keep on moving? Doesn't make sense to me...
No! ;D Desperate to hell! Kill them all! Never! ;D
But seriously, why lakes should be any different than strongholds and villages? You come, you rest, you go away.
I can agree that if they're magical you rest quicker. But then, if they're magical then there should be elven princesses, sirens, maidens of the woods, etc. which would pretty much force your horny soldiers to stay even longer than in some barracks, don't you think? ;D
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Matija
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Post by Matija on Dec 31, 2003 11:38:27 GMT
If some magical lakes are retained then they shouldn't be random IMHO. They would be special places, like Mirrow.
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Post by ladyhawke on Mar 4, 2004 16:06:34 GMT
I have finally figured out the lakes. It seems that any time a non-Free, Foul or Fey uses the lake they get toasted! It took so long for my dragon, skulkrin, targ and dwarf to get utterly refreshed. Meanwhile they kept getting repeated poisoned. So I'm guessing any race not starting with an 'F' gets a 5% chance to refresh and a 25% to get poisoned. ;D
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Ringthane
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Post by Ringthane on Mar 4, 2004 16:16:59 GMT
Change the race name to Financially Independent Grey Hill and Rocky Mountain Dwarves?
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Post by ladyhawke on Mar 4, 2004 19:05:03 GMT
Hahaha!!! ;D
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Post by premis on Mar 4, 2004 20:19:28 GMT
This is ridiculous: I couldn't get refreshment by different lakes by different lords taking different amount of time (even whole days) for a whole turn. Recently I avoid taking breaks by lakes and go for citadels if they are near enough. Even keeps. Lakes are just not useful enough. Probability should be 50%, not 5%.   I agree. In my certain game recruited all the south and in attempt to back all armies to the north tried a quick solution with lakes.. and 3-4 turns for most of the lords happened nothing, few of them incontaminated..just 1 or 2 becamed waters of life. JY have said in 0.1f release probabilities are 20% for Waters of life 5% for Incontaminated water But it seems reverse to me ;D But Igor u can't expect 50% that is much more than probability of shelter in citadels or keeps. |
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Post by ladyhawke on Mar 4, 2004 20:39:45 GMT
At first I thought there was a problem, but it was just an unlucky roll for some of my characters. Most of the time I can get an utterly refreshed result in 1 day. Now that I understand the percents better I'm happy with it.
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Perun
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Post by Perun on Mar 7, 2004 17:16:26 GMT
But Igor u can't expect 50% that is much more than probability of shelter in citadels or keeps. Maybe. It can be implemented that if you actually find waters of life you are utterly refreshed, but the night falls, so you cannot move any more. |
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Post by premis on Mar 7, 2004 22:09:45 GMT
The night will fall if u drink incontaminated water anyway ;D
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