Arminius
Morkin Admin
Ich bin Bl?cher
Posts: 4,148
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 10:27:56 GMT
Post by Arminius on Sept 28, 2007 10:27:56 GMT
I must admit I'm rather angry/annoyed/disappointed/disillusioned at what happened over the last few days, or more accurately, how it happened.
As an admin I tried to gauge the alliance's opinion from people's reactions and posts in the forum. This is impossible if some people swing from hawk ('let's attack the orcs and sort them out') to dove ('let's take all the blame and pay them compensation') continuously. It is even more impossible to present a coherent position to the outside world when one is then also contradicted in public, so that everybody knows that one hand doesn't know or care what the other one does in Morkin. This does not project a good picture of our alliances to the outside, and that is the main reason why I have now left Morkin.
The other issue is how we reacted in the Orc conflict. I am all in favour of initiative, as shown by Ruku (I think) when keeping up negotiations, but I was none too happy to see the eagerness with which most people abandoned the war plans to lick the boots of the idi-orcs, who were after all the ones who pushed for a confrontation with their diplomatic blackout, insults, and calling us 'enemies of orcs'. Add to that the way they dragged Digg into this and prick299's unbelievable attempt at a diplomatic resolution of the conflict. It just went far to quickly for my liking, and even though we hit back by canceling the pact we effectively did exactly what prick299 told us to do.
Then, Ashimar. He might have overreacted, and he admitted his reaction was a bit rash, but he only did so because the orcs messed us about with the colo-attack they didn't tell us about. He took a lot of losses, and all he gets is being criticised and told off in public. This is not how an alliance should react. Am I the only one who thought of sending Marc some resources to compensate him for the losses he took fighting for our alliances?
I'm at a loss. For weeks people say they're bored, looking for a fight, or wanting to quit because nothing is happening. Then something does happen and everybody and their dog falls over each other to appease the aggressors. I don't care if the orcs are weakened from their previous battles, if they can't take it then they should shut up. But they got away with it this time. I was actually very surprised that they accepted the compensation.
Anyway, I need some peace and quiet, which is why I will now crawl back into my corner and shut up again.
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Clausewitz
Luxor Member
Veni. Vidi. Vici. Mori.
Posts: 1,437
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 10:48:58 GMT
Post by Clausewitz on Sept 28, 2007 10:48:58 GMT
I've read this a half-dozen times, and it is 100% valid and understandable. I hope the "rant" I shared privately did not contribute to this, but suspect it may have. Indeed, you are in a difficult position, and performing a thankless yet critical service to us all. I think that we were all stressed by various elements of what occur in the past few days... The involvement of DIGG certainly changed the prospects for an offensive against the Orcs; but I would not consider it a diplomatic defeat. DIGG gained a short-term solution at the expense of their long-term relationship. And it will soon see DIGG standing alone against Pantheon - a diplomatic blunder of immense ramifications. We, on the other hand, swallowed a bitter pill; but we will not forget how the Orcs conduct business, and may find a very opportune time to redress this grievance when the Orcs' pimps are preoccupied with bigger fish Something tells me we will have a chance to settle this score in a far more politically favorable climate in the not-too-distant future...
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SkulkrinBait
Morkin Admin
Haxx0rs == Suxx0rs! v4
Posts: 6,680
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 11:00:41 GMT
Post by SkulkrinBait on Sept 28, 2007 11:00:41 GMT
Excuse me? I think that the problem is that the "hawks" and "doves" aren't the same people and due to the way Morkin works people took it upon themselves to do what they though best, which turned out to be contradictory.
What's done is done, we've got out of the pact with DIGG which is a big plus in my book.
I agree with Claus, we can sort the Orcs out later, Morkin has a long memory as our actions on the .co.uk server will testify!
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 12:33:04 GMT
Post by ashimar on Sept 28, 2007 12:33:04 GMT
I was not too pleased with all the communications going on behind my back either, nor the political play of giving Orc stoners. The point is they would not have attacked, even if Ryan had not given stoners to Makari, as they are weakened, our defenses are strong and we would not have fallen for attacking them first. Now the next time we attack we have to bite through those first.
I regret having been lazy by just sending one easy and massive fleet with a coloship included. I should have invested more time and effort to just level the island in 3 seconds, which would have been a much quicker and more sudden exercise and something compensation would have made nearly impossible to pay up due to the amounts involved.
I also contemplated, after reading those stoners were on their way, to send another attack to wipe them out a second time.
What would be the gain in your diplomacy and bribing if the side effect is that key players of this group the next time will be like: "Oh, I don't care, you do it yourself, I'm not moving a finger this time". Because that's what's happening. There is a distinct friction here between those players who desperately wanting to cling to continueing their current game and those who can't be bothered to play ad infinitum without any clear (and ending) goal now.
The losses I suffered are inconsequential to me, I have enough, I can spare to waste some if that translates into a more relaxed day here. But I have not heard any Orc say, nor Makari himself, how this was also a mistake on their part, while I have counted several people here who have in separate mails publicly stated to Orc/Digg how it was a bit my mistake, my rashness to do so. Rash or not is not my gripe, I admitted such myself - even to Makari, but not without stating likewise that I would not compensate him at all as he too was at fault, but some of you being so eager to use that as bargaining stuff annoyed me.
Not my most coherent piece of writing perhaps, but at least it contains what I wanted to get off my chest.
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 12:41:21 GMT
Post by ashimar on Sept 28, 2007 12:41:21 GMT
And for all the doves here: Morkin is a peaceful alliance in that we do not bully smaller players. It says nowhere we do not reserve the right to bully big ones, not that we do not use brute force when we think someone is deserving of it. The essence of being a Morkin player is that we try not to abuse our power in the same way as most others do and that we try to protect or at the least ignore smaller or starting players, that we for 99.9% do not take occupied isles from other players. But there are enough reasons to still be an active and agressive force. Perhaps this was not fully understood by some.
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Warliter
Morkin Admin
Baniter from M/MU
Posts: 814
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 13:01:36 GMT
Post by Warliter on Sept 28, 2007 13:01:36 GMT
I was actually annoyed that we gave in to DIGG demanding we stand down as if they are the IK f'ing police and that Orc is an upstanding citizen.
I think we should have stated to DIGG that any conflict between ORC & Corleth over this isle would have been exactly that and also that Morkin, Luxor & KoM would not be getting involved.
I think that Corleth could have blitzed those green skinned chickens back to the bloddy stone age and it would have been a much fairer fight
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Sol
Luxor Member
I pledge alligeance to the corn-growers.
Posts: 1,610
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 13:08:31 GMT
Post by Sol on Sept 28, 2007 13:08:31 GMT
While I understand that we are a peaceful alliance...I'm with Arminius on this one. Hence, my other long rant that you've all seen.
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Clausewitz
Luxor Member
Veni. Vidi. Vici. Mori.
Posts: 1,437
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 13:19:31 GMT
Post by Clausewitz on Sept 28, 2007 13:19:31 GMT
Some concerns I had in a "private rant" I shared with a few highly-trusted individuals yesterdays, as long as we're all sharing...
1. We were looking at a fight with the Orcs (no big deal) and DIGG (considerably bigger deal) over a colo policy that very few on the server agree with, and our "democratic alliance" had never formally adopted - at least, KoM and Luxor had not. The fact that very few agree with it does not mean it is necessarily a terrible policy - simply that we can anticipate an endless series of conflicts when we try to stick to our guns on it.
2. Marc, you know I have much love for you, but you did jump the gun. Nobody had any notice that you were going to be making the attack (at least not at the Luxor general-member level), and we did not know your intentions. Were you intending to suicide out? Were you standing up for the alliance? Were you settling a personal score? Those were considerable questions that seemed undetermined. Is it unreasonable that we had those uncertainties, given your expressed interest in selling your account and leaving the game? Had many of us known "I am going to retaliate in 12 hours against Makari for being a lying pig-f***er", much of the confusion would have been cleared, and it would have been far easier to draw a line in the sand and get behind you.
Many of us wanted a clean conscious, that our moral purity would be beyond reproach, should the fight commence. And I am quite confident the fight will commence - just not as soon as it appeared 24 hours ago.
Marc, all I ask is that you do not mistake confusion over your actions in the game as an insult to the quality of character so many of us admire and respect.
3. We seemed to be going to a war against Orc and DIGG over disrespect from the Orcs. There are plenty of great reasons to fight a war - I have trouble finding "respect" as one of them. Hence, I found myself a dove in this case. The perception of "disrespect" is the biproduct of extreme vanity/pride/arrogance (choose your vice).
4. Those of us with the military wherewithal have an obligation to those without, whether or not we are questioning our own commitment to the game and purpose. Exposing our younger, smaller players to annihilation because veterans are "bored", feel their egos are being "disrespected", or are more brazen and cavalier with their fate in such a Morkin v Orc-DIGG affair. The bottom line is we were not attacked, we were merely disrespected and lied to - it seems flagrant we escalated the situation by attacking, and debatable whether or not we were justified in that escalation.
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Clausewitz
Luxor Member
Veni. Vidi. Vici. Mori.
Posts: 1,437
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 13:21:03 GMT
Post by Clausewitz on Sept 28, 2007 13:21:03 GMT
Just want to add quick: We can hindsight this one to death with what we could have / should have / would have done, but it will only be productive if we all make an effort to learn from it.
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Ruku
Luxor Member
The Weighted Companion Cube will not stab you... The cake is a lie!!!!
Posts: 623
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 13:48:49 GMT
Post by Ruku on Sept 28, 2007 13:48:49 GMT
I feel like I should appologise to all those who did not approve of the action I took by writing to Makari and trying to solve this problem, but i'm not going to.
We will never have an alliance, the size of ours combined, where everyone will agree on the same thing. It's just never going to happen, it's natural that there is differing opinions, and each is going to express their opinion in a different way.
I believe that Morkin, as a whole is a fantasitc alliance, and although I haven't worked with or communicated with everybody, i'm sure that it's safe to say that every single member is a decent person oir they wouldn't be here, and I would be willing to sacrifice my account for any single member if I felt it was justified.
I don't care about if we look like pussies here, or look like we are weak there, because we all know we are not.
There are most likley going to be many more instances where we can use our power for a much needier cause, from a mere colo dispute gone wrong, to war is not one of them.
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SkulkrinBait
Morkin Admin
Haxx0rs == Suxx0rs! v4
Posts: 6,680
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 14:22:32 GMT
Post by SkulkrinBait on Sept 28, 2007 14:22:32 GMT
Ruku, don't worry about it, you showed initiative which was a good thing, as you say, you'll never get everyone to agree to one course of action.
We can still take the Orcs on if we want to, although we appear to have backed down over this, you could argue the Orcs backed down even more as they didn't escalate things into a conflict, which is very un-Orc like. They knew what would happen to them if they tried fighting us.
Perhaps when the DIGG vs Pantheon war breaks out would be a good time to show the Orcs our displeasure?
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 15:28:08 GMT
Post by Dalfiatach on Sept 28, 2007 15:28:08 GMT
The problem was our diplomatic ties last week. Had we given Corleth much more autonomy - in public - weeks ago; had we dropped the Digg pact weeks ago instead on endlessly just talking about dropping it; and any number of other factors, then I would have welcomed a nice little war with the Orcs and would have joined Corleth for the duration of it.
But if we had escalated the Orc dispute to war, with Digg trying to muscle in on it, and Pantheon standing by the sidelines just waiting for something big to happen, then WW2 would have broken out, and in it we would have been destroyed.
It really wasn't a good time. That's all. But we have not forgotten, and I for one was careful not to make any criticism of Marc in public. I don't think I mentioned the Orc thing publicly at all, in fact.
We are somewhat at fault ourselves in other ways. We grew too big too quickly without any real clear idea of what the relationship between the various wings should actually be. Hubris, perhaps, though Luxor have developed into a very, very fine alliance and of that we can justifiably be proud.
We really need to sort that mess out now, this week, otherwise these things will keep happening. How autonomous are the wings? Who speaks for them? Can one wing get itself into a war and the others not get involved? Should a member of one alliance really be negotiating in disputes involving a member of another? How do we explain that to the server without them thinking they can just pick us off one by one?
We have a lot of thinking to do. Yes, this week was messy, confused, disorganised, and nobody is really happy with everything that happened. But despite the chaos we still managed to extricate ourselves from the Digg pact, and that now gives us the freedom to reorganise ourselves, sort things out, decide what we are doing and move forward, lessons learned.
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Ruku
Luxor Member
The Weighted Companion Cube will not stab you... The cake is a lie!!!!
Posts: 623
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 15:40:04 GMT
Post by Ruku on Sept 28, 2007 15:40:04 GMT
I agree with everything that has been said so far in this thread. Can one wing get itself into a war and the others not get involved? As for this, I don't believe that this could happen. I think even if one wing dissagreed we would stick by them if was was to break out. Otherwise we would be no better than H|F not standing up for E|S if I remember correctly.
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inyati
Morkin Admin
Aqua profunda est quieta
Posts: 4,310
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 15:48:21 GMT
Post by inyati on Sept 28, 2007 15:48:21 GMT
Well said Dalfiatach, and as stated in another thread, I'm mostly concerned with the internal organization of the alliances, above all how High Level oficials act and coordinate between themselves. Some ideas have been put forward and as soon as the dust settles down a bit, we'll brainstorm apon this...
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SkulkrinBait
Morkin Admin
Haxx0rs == Suxx0rs! v4
Posts: 6,680
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Rant
Sept 28, 2007 15:49:09 GMT
Post by SkulkrinBait on Sept 28, 2007 15:49:09 GMT
It depends of course, small skirmishes could be handled by any of the wings themselves, but a big war would be different.
I believe that Corleth is the only wing that could fight a medium sized war by itself, a big war would involve the whole quartet no matter what.
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