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Post by ashimar on Sept 23, 2007 11:35:17 GMT
Socialism makes me laugh. In the United States, there is a far more skeptical approach to increased government programs/regulations/oversight/etc. The government cannot competently manage disaster relief, taxation, education, welfare, foreign relations, domestic elections, et al. How could a citizenry be asked to give more authority to such a government? "Coming Soon, from the people who brought you FEMA, Iraq, and Bush v Gore, Socialist Healthcare!" No thank you! From your point of view I fully understand, Ryan, but that the federal government of the U.S. can't pull it off doesn't mean European governments can't either. Taking the Netherlands as an example, our government meddles ion all sorts of things and we're doing fairly great because of it. For some time we have experimented with privatizing socalled 'common need/benefit' companies (like electricity, hospitals, railroads), but we have found out that doesn't work. You can't have safety, proper research and maintenance investments being caried out in a system where the company is no longer a (state controlled or at least corrected) non-profit company. What the U.S. needs is a Dutch government ! ;D But I guess we've had this discussion.
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eproxy
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Oceans old & new
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Post by eproxy on Sept 23, 2007 14:42:45 GMT
Privatised natural monopolies have generally speaking worked in the UK - there are one or two that havn't done so well but the rest have fared pretty well (gas and electiricity have done well but water prices are apparently higher than their real equivolent). Having said that for some reason I don't pay a water bill; so maybe thats why? All you have to do is unbundle the vertical structure of these natural monopolies to instigate competition supported by limited amounts of government regulation. The one area in which all of our privatised industries fall down though is in research and improvement (although maintenance isn't usually an issue). Generally speaking safety levels, in the industries at least, are quite high - except the main failed child of privatisation... the railroads/train services. I'm still waiting for the telecoms people to lay down proper high-speed internet cables nationwide... unfortunately they're being so slow apparently the government is having to step in and prod them (probably with wads of cash) to go faster. Added; and tomorrows lecture will be on Weightless Goods and Networking within the Economy
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Natmus
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Post by Natmus on Sept 23, 2007 17:02:20 GMT
Socialism makes me laugh. In the United States, there is a far more skeptical approach to increased government programs/regulations/oversight/etc. The government cannot competently manage disaster relief, taxation, education, welfare, foreign relations, domestic elections, et al. How could a citizenry be asked to give more authority to such a government? "Coming Soon, from the people who brought you FEMA, Iraq, and Bush v Gore, Socialist Healthcare!" No thank you! Excuse me, but are you not in reality saying 'no thanks' to more of the same type of government that you have at present? Meaning a two party system where minorities doesn't get heard and lobbyists from the private sector pull the strings behind the stage with 'campaign contributions' and other bribes? In reality, seen from where I am, a weak and corrupt government, in large parts run by and for large coorporations and special interests. To me, that is a great argument in favour of socialism, or at least the large social sectors mainly practised in northern Europe. Socialised free medical sectors for all, free university educations for all qualified applicants, more public transportation (still not good enough, but much better than in the the U.S. and the third world.). I still think that with so many of the faults of the U.S. system exposed recently (If I lived there I would seriously be calling for a revolution!), I don't understand how the U.S. public (as it seems to me) reacts. Instead of demanding serious change to a better system, they just put their heads down and oppose change, with some mumbo-jumbo talk that change probably only will make things even worse! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE FIRE! Things can't get much worse, unless you take the final move towards a completely corrupt system without any freedom or democracy at all. Drop the two party system, and adopt some kind of proportional representation. Socialise medicine! Make college education free for all, and give equal help to all students to support them during their education. Improve public transportation and help fight pollution. I know all these things are hard to do, but that's all the more reason to get started right away. Things are not going to get better, nor easier to improve, the more you wait!
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Clausewitz
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Post by Clausewitz on Sept 23, 2007 17:11:26 GMT
I may be mistaken, but last I looked, the "socialist utopias" of northern Europe are teetering on bankruptcy, amidst an unsustainable economic structure (i.e., when current workers retire).
The reason for opposition towards change towards socialism in the United States is historical. The size of the US federal government has increased in scope and authority every decade, and yet Americans consider past decades some of the best. Therefore, they see some of these problems as stemming from the current governmental scope - which is considerably larger than it was in the past, when the problems did not exist.
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Arminius
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Post by Arminius on Sept 23, 2007 17:26:27 GMT
I may be mistaken, but last I looked, the "socialist utopias" of northern Europe are teetering on bankruptcy, amidst an unsustainable economic structure (i.e., when current workers retire). Excuse my ignorance, but I thought that exactly describes the USA, which would collapse in a heap of debts if 'socialist' China wasn't propping it up. Norway, on the other hand, is one of the richest countries in the world... No sub-prime mortgages there. I agree with Mads, but the main issue is it would require higher taxation, and thus a drop in the standard of living of the American middle classes (to a level we 'old Europeans' got used to). But it'll do the World a lot of good if all those air cons and petrol-guzzling cars were used a bit less often. But then, according to www.politicalcompass.org/ I'm closer to Ghandi than to Milton Friedman...
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Clausewitz
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Post by Clausewitz on Sept 23, 2007 17:42:48 GMT
I haven't looked at the numbers in a couple years, but my recollection is that in terms of debt as a percentage of GDP, the United States is relatively healthy. Whereas northern Europe (with Norway an outlier due to massive oil revenues in the North Sea), is doing far worse. Maybe one of us will actually dig up the numbers so we're not just talking on assumptions EDIT: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt#12 Belgium #26 Germany #29 Canada #30 France #32 United States #47 Netherlands #53 Sweden #57 Norway #61 United Kingdom #65 Finland #83 Denmark And for fun... #119/120 Estonia - go figure! And an interesting story on Sweden's economy... members.forbes.com/global/2001/0319/034.html
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Sol
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Post by Sol on Sept 23, 2007 18:31:20 GMT
I still think that with so many of the faults of the U.S. system exposed recently (If I lived there I would seriously be calling for a revolution!), I don't understand how the U.S. public (as it seems to me) reacts. Instead of demanding serious change to a better system, they just put their heads down and oppose change, with some mumbo-jumbo talk that change probably only will make things even worse! ;D America needs a Che Guevara. I think the main reason why the US would be opposed to socialism is that more than half of the population doesn't understand what it is and the benefits they could gain from such a system. Additionally, those who are heard are a small group that control most of the country's wealth and so would oppose the socialist way because it wouldn't benefit them. It just threatens their way...I remember about a year ago I went to my friend's government class and started talking about socialism to other students and its benefits and the teacher kicked me out of the class and told me not to talk to his students again because I was a bad influence and a danger to the American way... Anyway, take education as an example. The current economic system in the US only allows "middle class" students to attend a decent university and to graduate with a bachelors degree. Less than half of those students will go to graduate school to get a masters or a PhD... it's not that the students are stupid and can't pass. They simply can't afford to compete at that level. It's all a huge investment some people can't even afford. The funny thing is, because of this reason, there aren't as many people with a decent degree that most universities are forced to hire professors from other countries because they can't find anyone in the US that's qualified. As for the economic prosperity of a country. The only reason the US has all that $$ is because they fail to give rights and proper wages to the working man (especially those holding agricultural and factory jobs). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any other country in the world exploits people the same way the US does. Gawd bless their silly capitalistic ways.
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Arminius
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Post by Arminius on Sept 23, 2007 18:50:17 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any other country in the world exploits people the same way the US does. Gawd bless their silly capitalistic ways. China? They're catching up fast with unbridled capitalism.
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Clausewitz
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Post by Clausewitz on Sept 23, 2007 18:55:55 GMT
Corrupt banking system (see: Japan's "bust" in the 90's), tens of millions of young single men without prospects for wives (see: Formula for Unrest), trivial middle class (see: 60% of the country living in poverty) and weak provincial governance (see: Afghanistan) are some major hurdles China has in store before she ever establishes herself as a legitimate "first world" nation.
Though her progress in the past 20 years has been remarkable...
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Natmus
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Post by Natmus on Sept 23, 2007 20:51:01 GMT
I haven't looked at the numbers in a couple years, but my recollection is that in terms of debt as a percentage of GDP, the United States is relatively healthy. Whereas northern Europe (with Norway an outlier due to massive oil revenues in the North Sea), is doing far worse. Maybe one of us will actually dig up the numbers so we're not just talking on assumptions EDIT: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt#12 Belgium #26 Germany #29 Canada #30 France #32 United States #47 Netherlands #53 Sweden #57 Norway #61 United Kingdom #65 Finland #83 Denmark And for fun... #119/120 Estonia - go figure! Norway even being on that list makes me wonder how that is set up. Not looking at the net balance, but only at the amount of outstanding public debts without looking at corresponding assets. So that's public debt. Here, from the same source is the current balance (not set relative to the GDP, which is left as an exercise to the student. I'm sure that this other aspect of economics will be viewed with interest: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balanceBut nevermind the economy. Where is the political change? Where is an end to the corruption of the two party system? Where is the improvement of the education system that allows poor gifted people a proper education? Where is a fair medical system that treats all equally? I still don't see why making any changes should make things worse. Again, the political system in the U.S. can hardly be any worse. Scrap it and start over from scratch with something that makes sense for this day and age. I'm sure the founding fathers never had envisioned that the system they set up should remain fixed forever, nomatter how the society evolved (whoops, can you say that? ). Surely the U.S. population isn't that fanatically conservative that they prefer a corrupt system, just because they can't bother to cahnge it to a working one?
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Sol
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Post by Sol on Sept 23, 2007 20:55:04 GMT
I don't think its a question of whether Americans prefer a corrupt system. Many people are just ignorant of how the world is outside the US. I mean, some can't even point out where they're at on a map!
It's a question about media. They have a very tight grasp on what Americans think is right. If the media says they have democracy, and are the best country in the world, the people will believe.
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Shendemiar
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Post by Shendemiar on Sept 23, 2007 21:25:03 GMT
Revolutions are not possible anymore in modern countries.
There is so much of "Bread and circuses" for everyone. Interaction between individuals is replaced by media which broadcasts the truth of the rich elite (who owns it). Nobody wants to hear about the really disgusting issues, and the media is more than happy to fulfill that wish.
Effecting the course of a nation by legal means isn't any easier either.
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SkulkrinBait
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Post by SkulkrinBait on Sept 23, 2007 21:27:57 GMT
Lies, damned lies and statistics! Now the UK has at last finished paying the lend-lease debt back to the US, we should rise up that table.
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inyati
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Post by inyati on Sept 23, 2007 21:41:34 GMT
People!, we are all the lucky ones in the world (Both USA and Europe). Our "luck" and good life is based on our unresponsible and total unilateral resourse grabbing from all corners of the globe. But funny enough, the 3rd world will bring about our (1st world) death in the end.
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Sol
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I pledge alligeance to the corn-growers.
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Post by Sol on Sept 23, 2007 21:45:14 GMT
Hahahaha
And the Mayans in central america will rule all!! Bwahahahaha
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