[Call to arms] R|M v. SW

[Natmus]

I agree that this may be a bit muddled. We need to hear more facts about what's going on before making a move. I have had this little exchange with Raul:

Message
Date: 31.01.2006 07:08
From: Raul
Subject: Greetings
Hello Natmus
I note you have been spying on our SW|15 members and also are at Defcon2. I am aware you are about to come into the war on R|M's side. It saddens me that you plan to attack as from the start I have always had respect for Morkin and was at one time your protector.
Raul

Message
Date: 31.01.2006 09:20
To: Raul
Subject: RE: Greetings
True, I have been sending scouts out to the few members of SW15, that _actually_ are located in ocean 15 No real attacks have been sent, so you should consider these scoutings more like a statement of intent, should a diplomatic solution fail.

-Duke- has called upon us to honour the pact, and we will. However, I have been telling him to settle this peacefully, and as to who started it I don't really care. Somebody should end it, and end it soon.

If it is unavoidable, I think the first round of Morkin attacks will be only ships and soldiers; no catapults or colony ships, as that makes for less bad feeling.

Have you entered into negotiations with -Duke-? As I understand it R|M colonies had been placed as 'reserved' for your alliance on your tool? Can't they be 'un-reserved'?

Natmus

Message
Date: 31.01.2006 10:28
From: Raul
Subject: RE: RE: Greetings
I am afraid R|M have every intention of attacking our ocean 3 members and it was to protect our ocean 3 members that we fought against R|M. This talk about reserving R|M isles anywhere before war broke out was crap. We are now drawing up lists like you of targets.

Message
Date: 31.01.2006 11:19
To: Raul
Subject: RE: Greetings
Hello again.

I have been going over the messages you have exchanged with Ashimar/Marc, and we are currently trying to determine the facts of this situation, before we do anything else than scout the nearby members of SW15.

Before we get good answers to a couple of questions from -Duke-, and perhaps some more information from you on how the idea of reserved isles can have come into being at all, we are staying cool. Marc has asked you about SW's side of it, so you don't have to answer twice.

Right now we would like to concentrate on Donkey of the old E~L who has attacked one of our members

Natmus

Either this is all caused by suspicions and jittery nerves, or one of the two (-Duke- or Raul) is lying, OR Raul is really scared and is trying to sweettalk us into not joining the fray.

I just don't know what's really going on, I can't distinguish between information and propaganda this time.

[inyati]

Morkin is always first priority...So best to concntrate on Perun´s attacks and later on, on these muddle diplo stuff. IMHO

[SkulkrinBait]

I'll fight if needed, just don't expect much!

[ashimar]

An answer from my personal pact partner Azriel of [HOD] officially alliance pact partner of Sea Wolves:

Date: 31.01.2006 11:38
From: Azriel
Subject: RE: impending war
hello.

well i think it hardly unlikely that sw will be going to war with wraith at any point, they are too close.

the other targets i could believe.

however we have a pact with SW and they have claimed that they were attacked by R|M and called upon us for help, we cannot refuse and retain any honour.

oh and before you claim that firefox attacked first both sides are claiming the other struck first or that the other side was planning it first, i have no idea who is lying or mistaken or exagerating and without any such we have to go with our pact.

its a shame really, since their image change we have been discussing distancing ourselves from sw and reducing our treaty to a peace treaty, however if we were going to do any such thing it needed to be before they called on us for help, if we did it now we would dishonour our alliance.

sorry if this is going to put us on oposite sides but i hope you understand our position, we cannot betray our pact and make any claim to be honourable and take pacts seriously again.

I think we should not take it too bad if we cannot sufficiently help out R|M. After all, R|M cancelled a pact with NUM I think (or was it LSD ?) when asked by explaining they were in no condition to do battle then, but you do not get 1800 LWs between november and now, so also R|M likes to preserve their stuff for what they have in mind and wouldn't want to see it ruined by some in between war against superior or equal forces (Wraith at the time). I feel we are in a similar situation right now. I proposed to Azriel to not target eachother's members at least (Morkin + HOD) and that I would move as slowly as possible without dishonouring the pact.

But back to Raul & Anton. I think they are both somehow guilty and not telling all. As for Raul being afraid, no, it's just rational calculation. Too much collateral and structural damage is looming.

[ashimar]

Date: 31.01.2006 12:22
From: Azriel
Subject: RE: RE: RE: impending war
well i have already informed the SW side of this war that we would prefer not to be put up against morkin players if it all kicks off.

although i doubt that people are going to back down now, i think that certainly sw and its allies are now looking at the situation as a chance to expand.

i dont know about the R|M guys but either they view it the same way or were trying things on and had it back fire on them as you suggest.

Ashimar wrote:
----------

Same here with R|M. I have the distinct feeling both of them are at fault. I do believe they try to steal colonies from players they carefully select, but the problem is indeed to prove that. Still, I find it sufficiently dubious what is going on to justify holding back for as long as honourably justifiable. And I'm trying to work on Raul to get to a point where they can cancel the whole exercise. I don't mind going to war every now and then, but it is rather inconvenient right now. We got a stray E~L cat trying to abuse the situation.

No problem with opposite sides of the line. We can however honour them and still avoid members of eachother's alliance, not ?

[Arminius]

BerlinerMC (with whom I have indeed a personal pact) asks me about this; I said we have not decided what to do, though some people seem to believe we have...

Date: 30.01.2006 21:37
From: -Duke-
Subject: HITLIST
McPete (i will go for his islands in 3 in a sec)
Raul
and the whole of SW|04,03,13

berlinermc is getting attacked by morkin as well as the whole sw|15 alliance.
sw|14 is gonna get attacked by F&S.

message admins or admirals if you are prepared to attack one of these

Apart from the fact that I won't attack him due to my personal pact, it seems somebody is counting on us without waiting for our decision, unless I have missed something here?

[ashimar]

Guess what ?

Donkey is in [Hermes] and Sea Wolves Elite lists them as a pactpartner although their page does not mention anything.

I asked Raul about this and depending on the outcome we might be able to honour our R|M pact by declining to fight SW directly as we are in fact ill prepared for that and -if Duke wants to keep us as a pact partner, he should see the point that we won't be around anymore if we continue- but to fight Hermes which coincides with our efforts to kill Donkey.

Do I make sense now ? ;D

[mmupatton]

I think we are approaching the 1st of April:

Date: 01.02.2006 06:00
From: Raul
Subject: ...
Hi
I know there was some incidents in ocean 4 but I can confirm there is no list of targets.

Raul

[Natmus]

Bah, Raul is spamming us with messages of benevolent love and admiration for us, and I can't get any firm updates on how the main war goes.

Should I send both -Duke- and Raul a message that we are sitting this war out, unless attacked, and instead will concentrate on our old friend Donkey?

[SkulkrinBait]

Yeah, I'd like to get into a full blown alliance war but I simply don't have the forces yet. We can content ourselves with Donkey, although I wont be much use even against one player.

[Arminius]

I would also rather not get involved; still building things up, and unless the situation is obvious we should be careful to enter into any existing conflicts.

[guinevere]

SYN has been scouting my colonies and has made it clear that if I attack SW, he will take them over. He's been wanting an excuse for ages. If it's a long journey, they will be gone before my fleets are back. He'll probably want Shiraks too. 123andy456 is also scouting. So I'd prefer if we stay out of this war.

[ashimar]

I am not entirely comfortable with the idea of backing out of it, then again, we should not forget

1. R|M backed out of the 345 vs Wraith war on similar grounds (not ready, in no condition) while it is evident that their condition was a lot better than ours now, save a few.

2. If we engage SW E/15 like R|M would like us to continue, then there is not going to be a Morkin left, I fear.

Or alternatively put, we can start all over again and will not be rank 60-ish even , but rank 80-ish, even though a few of us will still be relatively okay.

And on a personal note I admit I just hate to see my nice fleet loosing half of it's ships and cats because of dubious acts on both sides and a not very clearly defined warzone/enemy. With E~L we had "holy purpose", now were just pawns in a play.

3. What R|M has done for us up till now is wonderful, but let's not forget their investment was a low one although it may have been a big help to us at the time. Thery could easily afford it, unlike we right now.

4. What we have going for us, if we back out, is at least that we have fought the E~L war with disabled pacts. That was a damn good choice, whoever it was that came up with it.

Still, it does upset me that we will have to admit defeat if we back out while F&S and MoMe and even Ratem *say* they will fight for their "good friend".

We did not want to shout out loud how weak we actually were, we (I) boasted about it in a way, and now we have to admit, well, sorry, but actually we're in shambles save a few who also are not thrilled by the idea of loosing already the ships and cats that were meticulously rebuild over the course of a months time.

War is expensive and we haven't saved enough reserve

[ashimar]

I got this from Raul, he is indeed tempting us with "now if you do nothing, things will not get out of hand, but R|M will have to take it to the end now".

It's a very dubious feeling, but one thing is certain: Raul is good when he's good. ;~)

Date: 02.02.2006 01:39
From: Raul
Subject: Hiya
Hi Ashimar
Sorry for delay in replying. I got swamped by messages and can only seem to start making a dent in them in a quiet time like now at the time of writing.

Anyway, I know that we all have lots of personal ties and so this does create a bit of a tangled problem. I have worked hard to keep everything slow and cool with F&S and Morkin.

The pact allies are not really yet involved in this war. I know that R|M and we at the end of the 3rd day of fighting have been beating the hell out of each other. World War I terms like a bit of a somme. Anyway I am treading slowly and carefully in all this but it does seem that R|M and we are in too deeply to be able to back out.

As I said I have the greatest respect for Morkin and hope when all this is over that we can all be on great terms. I wish to keep the door open for us to discuss things. I am going to see how tomorrow goes and I will message you about the same time as this message.

Raul

-------------


Date: 02.02.2006 01:55
From: Raul
Subject: Questions
Things have been so confusing that I have yet to be able to call in the pact allies. Hermes is pacted with us and will fight on our side. Same with Sohei, Firefox and a few others. The allies are held in reserve for the moment because I am not sure on you guys and F&S. My position is that if an R|M ally attacks us then a 2nd front will open up which would be met by SW and allied forces.

The ability to message all members in an alliance is from a program called Roundmail.

p.s. -Duke- and myself love a good war and I have to say I have not had so much fun on this game since I started playing. Win, loose or stalemate it will have been a really cool war.

----------

Date: 02.02.2006 03:30
From: Raul
Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: R|M v S|W
There was some problems within SW|04 which was addressed, It was localised to SW|04 and no other wing of SW.

Ashimar wrote:
----------

You have a point there.

But, what about these incidents where for instance Blaydwoman complains of her islands being attacked or nearly attacked by members of Sea Wolves wings claiming to have "leave" to do so and referring to some sort of masterlist ?

That would, from my point of view, be dubious behaviour also. Can you shed some light on that ?

Marc

Raul wrote:
----------

Remember how E~L treated your members by spying and plotting. You struck back to protect your member interests. We are doing exactly the same thing. R|M want colonies and they want our members ocean 3 colonies. This I cannot allow to happen.

We have agreed peace 2 times before with R|M so it is possible.

[mmupatton]

I know that I am no fan of Raul so I was unable to stop myself:

MMU-Patton said:

Date: 02.02.2006 07:54
To: Raul
Subject: Ocean 4 and reference to WWI
Hi again, sorry for the delay but work takes precedence

The 'incidents' that you call them in Ocean 4 are blatant attempts by SW|04 to steal colonies from smaller alliances that have posed no threat, are not allied to your mortal enemies and are basically just looking after themselves. The attacks seem to be agreed beforehand, since they all started around the same time and are geographically, if one can call it that, partitioned among the SW|04 members.

My friends are not amused and it does reflect on this SW thing you've got going.

The reference to World War I was obvious, given the rules of this game and I must admit that I find it logical to compare games as this with a war that killed more than 8 million soldiers. Of course you are referring to the build up with secret pacts and treaties, which is your concern.

But I have to add, that World War I was a pointless war; it was the result of arrogant governments that thought that a war could solve the economic and social trouble they themselves were unable, or unwilling, to solve in another way.

All the best etc.
MMU-Patton

and his response

Raul said:

Date: 02.02.2006 08:05
From: Raul
Subject: Ocean 4 and reference to WWI
Yes there was an issue in SW|04 which was not reflected in other wings. This was addressed internally.

I think the last one is the closest thing the blayds, johema and many others will get to an 'I am sorry'.