Morkin's Island Takeover Policy

[Gornall]

arminius said:

gornall said:

I Don't agree with the clearing part.

You clear an isle and some one takes it Id be seriously annoyed. Especially considering it can cost you a a good deal of units.

But for the reasons explained above it is not a failsafe criterion. Also, this is a diplomatic guideline to give us some help in sorting out conflicts. As such it would be displayed on our profile, to answer Aero's concerns.

And yes, once we have agreed on adopting it, if you take an isle somebody else cleared you'd have the backing of the alliance when they have a go at you.

I appreciate that its good to have some set guidelines but its not all as cut and dry as this.

I'll adopt it but me being the little guy I can see me being murdered if I don't pay someone their comp that they feel entitled to.

So long as the alliance backing is there I aint fussed either way

[Arminius]

There is a philosophical view (Hobbes, I think, and not the tiger one) that bad laws are better than no laws at all. At least you know the rules. See the current situation in Iraq... but then I only have second+ hand accounts of it.

It's just like ce-v1, if everybody knows about it and plays by it there'll be no problems. I think we should start making up rules and regulations and try to inflict them on the general public. "The Law of Morkin". That'll get us into some action.

[2kcastle]

I think its a bad idea, especcially when it doesn't recognise any losses you may have sustained in clearing an isle.
Take shendemiars isle as an example, he loses 600 lws + troops clearing it but fails a couple of colo's, if someone else had grabbed that isle he'd be expected to write off his losses and get nothing back from it ? Theres no way anyone would just let an isle go after they committed that sort of force to taking it! and if we put that list on our alliance pages the first dispute we get into, the other party is just going to start quoting it.
If we have a set policy i think it should state that if you incur heavy losses clearing an isle then you should be entitled to it.

[Arminius]

How do you define 'heavy'? And what if two people start clearing the isle at the same time, both having losses?

It's a real minefield. Especially since you cannot make others aware of your claim.

[domhnall]

Could you set up an arbitration committee with the other major alliances?

Firstly, I agree that possession should literally be 9/10th of the law but if you get a juicy isle then compensation is no biggie.

If you can prove that you expended significant resource clearing an isle the eventual should compensate you for at least a percentage.

Should two players jointly clear an isle the eventual owner should offset a similar percentage of the losing player losses.

The important thing is: no proof, no compo. All players MUST be able to procure at least one spy report and all attack reports in order to claim.

My suggestion: All hearings take place on the IK.com forum, perhaps overseen by an agreed 3rd party independent.

[inyati]

Actully I was not thinking of making this public at all. Its our guideline. Its how we resolve issues. I'm not bothered what the other alliances think about it. By following these diplomatic guidelines, we will have to resolve each issue that arises, of course. And, BTW the guidelines are not setup to avoid conflict or war!

They are just guides. I'm sure everyone wants the alliance backing in these disputes, right? Expecialy if you have a successful colonization and someone over colonises, right?
I'm suggesting that the alliance will back you with war (if need be), in that case, but not with war in the other case. You still have the alliance's backing to resolve the issue in both cases.

[eproxy]

Personally I follow the 'you claim; you keep' rule. Thats just my personal choice though; if someone wants to keep an isle I cleared I'll go to war with them for it.

As a side note I think domhnall mentioned needing a spy report (and attack reports) to be able to claim an isle; sometimes though I don't spy first, I just attack.

[Arminius]

eproxy said:

Personally I follow the 'you claim; you keep' rule.

But how do you communicate your claim?

[domhnall]

Anyone can claim an isle- it's simply unenforceable, except perhaps within an alliance. Also, if you are frequently warring over isles you risk negating any gains you make, and perhaps even lose out in the long run.

I was proposing that if someone beats you to an isle, they compensate you for losses you incurred clearing it if you can provide adequate proof.

[Gornall]

Yeh, theres no way I wanna spend a big chunk of my resources/fleets clearing the majority of an isle for someone else to take it.

Emphasis on the word majority.

[Arminius]

Which is the reason why I generally don't do it anymore.

[2kcastle]

As an example for this sort of dispute, theres a 1000 pointer in 1,32 at the minute, (i think its been there a couple of days) its got 4,000 spears and 650 lws on it, but a full storehouse will help to offset the losses.
I can clear and take that isle but what would happen under the following circumstances ?
Scenario 1

I clear the isle completely losing 800 lws, 4,000 troops and 150 cats. My first colo attempt fails and someone who's closer than me takes the isle before i can send another fleet ?

Scenario 2

I clear the majority of the isles defences with a clearing fleet and someone else clears the remaining defences ( under 500 spears for instance ) and colonises before my colo fleet arrives.

Scenario 3

I wait and keep watching the isle until someone else clears the defences and then steal the isle before they can colonise it, i've lost nothing and gained a 900 point isle.

As i understand the policy that was suggested, I'd be expected to suffer the losses on the first 2 examples and let whoever took the isle keep it, while on the third, where i'm plainly in the wrong and have no legitimate claim to the isle the whole alliance would be expected to back me to the point where we go to war over it.
That can't be right surely ?

[inyati]

First permiss: lets take into acount that a valid claim is only if you can get the MH to level 2, and that in all below scenarios when its stated 'island is taken', means the MH is built up to level 2.
Our diplomats will act according to the following scenario as:

2kcastle said:

As an example for this sort of dispute, theres a 1000 pointer in 1,32 at the minute, (i think its been there a couple of days) its got 4,000 spears and 650 lws on it, but a full storehouse will help to offset the losses.
I can clear and take that isle but what would happen under the following circumstances ?
Scenario 1

I clear the isle completely losing 800 lws, 4,000 troops and 150 cats. My first colo attempt fails and someone who's closer than me takes the isle before i can send another fleet ?

Firstly our member will be aware that the best outcome will be to strike a deal with the current owner, because MORKIN will never go to war over the matter.
He can do it himself or ask the help of the alliance. Diplomats will use every argument possible to strike a deal (either ask for resourses or even ask for the island). To reinforce our arguments, diplomats will of course use all attack reports of our member to ensure a fair outcome of the issue. However, diplomats will never threaten with war, or even give hope to our member that we'll use such an argument, and as stated before, our member should already know that we wont go to war over such an issue.

2kcastle said:

Scenario 2

I clear the majority of the isles defences with a clearing fleet and someone else clears the remaining defences ( under 500 spears for instance ) and colonises before my colo fleet arrives.

Same as 1st scenario (considering that the first to colonises also builds his main house to level 2)

2kcastle said:

Scenario 3

I wait and keep watching the isle until someone else clears the defences and then steal the isle before they can colonise it, i've lost nothing and gained a 900 point isle.

Considering that our member builds the MH to level 2, then we acknowledge that he has rightful claim to the island, meaning that he has the right to keep it (unless he wishes to relinquish it). In this case our Diplomats will make it clear that under no circumstances will we forfeit the island to anyone. However we are open to negociations (give some compensation, if we wish to), as long as it does not include giving the island away. If the island is overcolonised (which would mean that someone hit it with cats to pull down the MH) then, in our eyes, we gain a Causi Belli against the offender, and will threaten with war.

2kcastle said:

As i understand the policy that was suggested, I'd be expected to suffer the losses on the first 2 examples and let whoever took the isle keep it, while on the third, where i'm plainly in the wrong and have no legitimate claim to the isle the whole alliance would be expected to back me to the point where we go to war over it.
That can't be right surely ?

I met someone the other day that does translations in various languages (Portuguese, Spanish, English, Italian, German). She said that 90% of her work was commissioned through the internet, and that the various texts where open to everyone around the globe to translate. But only the first person to finish the transaltion of the text (or document) would earn the money for completeing the job. Meanwhile, there where probably several hundred people working on the same document, but these dont get any payment of any sorts, as they didn´t manage to be the first to finish. Many hours lost I expect.
That can't be right surely ?

[inyati]

There are holes in all scenarios. The one you gave, in accordance to our suggestion, does open up such a sneaky 'hole'. But we can never truely create a 100% fullproof law.
The objective in creating these guidelines is to cut down on our hesitation to deal in some of these cases.
You will notice that when such issues pops up the first posts usualy contardict each other: one says you did good, the other says the island is your, and yet another says you are in the wrong. As time passes things tend it get even harder to estabelish.
So the idea behind it all (and its more of an internal organization that has no need to be externalized), is that when one of these scenarios comes up, you'll get a quick simple answer from the alliance on how we think the issue should be dealt.
From the start we'll openly say that the island is rightfully yours or not.
In the first case, we'll use our diplomatic tact to difuse the issue, by getting the person to back down, and will even ask you if you're willing to pay him some resourse (as he'll supply us with info of his deeds) as well. We will not however relinquish the island to anyone esle (unless you wish to).
In the second case, we'll try to make a deal by submitting your reports to the other player, and hope to at least make him give you some resourses. But, if you get cocky and dont accept, you will be aware that the alliance can not back you up with a war threat of any sorts. If you take over the island by force (in our eyes, as you have attacked an owned island with a MH at level 2 at least), then you are putting yourself, not the alliance, in a dificult position.

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This is an open discussion, and would like to see other drafts of possible guidelines for our diplomats in this situation.

[2kcastle]

Posted by inyati on Today at 3:43pm
Scenario 1

I clear the isle completely losing 800 lws, 4,000 troops and 150 cats. My first colo attempt fails and someone who's closer than me takes the isle before i can send another fleet ?


Firstly our member will be aware that the best outcome will be to strike a deal with the current owner, because MORKIN will never go to war over the matter.
However, diplomats will never threaten with war, or even give hope to our member that we'll use such an argument, and as stated before, our member should already know that we wont go to war over such an issue.

---

I'll never agree to this and i can't honestly believe that many other members will either. The only deal i'd be willing to offer someone who stole an isle from me in this way would be that i only take the one isle back from them. Anyone who saw an isle had been cleared of 4k spears and then jumped in and took the isle is in the wrong.

Scenario 3

I wait and keep watching the isle until someone else clears the defences and then steal the isle before they can colonise it, i've lost nothing and gained a 900 point isle.


"Considering that our member builds the MH to level 2, then we acknowledge that he has rightful claim to the island, meaning that he has the right to keep it (unless he wishes to relinquish it). In this case our Diplomats will make it clear that under no circumstances will we forfeit the island to anyone. However we are open to negociations (give some compensation, if we wish to), as long as it does not include giving the island away. If the island is overcolonised (which would mean that someone hit it with cats to pull down the MH) then, in our eyes, we gain a Causi Belli against the offender, and will threaten with war.

---

I wouldn't support anyone who deliberately stole an isle in this way ! It goes against every notion of fair play that we have played this game by for nearly a year now.


"I met someone the other day that does translations in various languages (Portuguese, Spanish, English, Italian, German). She said that 90% of her work was commissioned through the internet, and that the various texts where open to everyone around the globe to translate. But only the first person to finish the transaltion of the text (or document) would earn the money for completeing the job. Meanwhile, there where probably several hundred people working on the same document, but these dont get any payment of any sorts, as they didn´t manage to be the first to finish. Many hours lost I expect.
That can't be right surely ? "

This isn't relevant at all, but to make it fit this situation better - would she be so willing to translate them and take the risk if :
1) She had to pay £100 for the document in order to translate it ? ( The equivalent of one of us wasting a fleet clearing for some-one else to take the isle )

2) After Translating it and submitting it she finds out that some-one else has claimed the money by copy-ing her document and putting their name on it ?