Shendemiar
Morkin Admin
Mmmm, free goo!
Posts: 6,751
|
Post by Shendemiar on Nov 2, 2007 0:30:48 GMT
I was rash, but i was in assumption most people wanted to attack Digg or go our of the Game since its boring. Morkins agreed something needed to be done, and most people even said it needs to be war. What we didn't determine was when.
Well having these assumptions i thought its best to go now, before Pantheon loses and all those alliances wondering if to join, wont join. That moment is now but its waning every day.
So, no war now and i apologize my rashness.
It still leaves the question what we need to do. Digg will kill Pantheon soon, and after that its us for even planning to attacking them.
Why are people actually afraid to go to war? Is it troops? Is it because they don't feel they have hope?
Have a little faith. Have a little courage. You'll feel good afterwards regardless of the outcome.
|
|
AeroS
Luxor Admin
Timmons[HAWK]
Posts: 1,138
|
Post by AeroS on Nov 2, 2007 0:53:43 GMT
I completely missed the 'Morkin ethos' involved in this war. I joined what is a "peaceful" alliance but we have steadily gained an aggressive edge as the months have worn on. I know that DIGG is going to kill the server through pure economics but it seems to me that going to war for these reasons is beyond Morkins mission statement. I wondered, when I joined, how a peaceful alliance could grow in a war game but here I am with 100+ islands and in a good defensive position with some fairly heavy fleets in my home area. Now we sit on the precipice of a war that I am unsure how fits in our peaceful nature.
If DIGG were to try to attack us in the coming months, and maybe roll right through us, then I would feel that I acted in a consistent set of personal guidelines. It does not bother me that I burn down now or later or if we win or lose, I am looking to an end where I can say that I played according to my own set of rules. I think this war is causing so much conflicting thoughts and confusion because it does not appear to follow our own personal view of what Morkin 'is' and how the justification for this war does not reflect how we want to play the game.
Sure, DIGG will win without us interfering and....Yes, they are unlikely to split. They will eventually attack us and we will lose. But in the end, we played the game with dignity and true to how we felt the game should be played.
I would like to exit this war, finish Rahein(whether that means simply calling a truce with him or continuing to attack him) and most importantly, attempt to open a real dialogue with DIGG where we offer whatever help we can to make this split happen.
Sorry about the wall-o-text.
|
|
Freiegeister
Morkin Member
'Blasphemy is a victimless crime' - Dawkins
Posts: 1,126
|
Post by Freiegeister on Nov 2, 2007 2:10:02 GMT
Oh yeah, we are supposed to be aren't we.
|
|
|
Post by domhnall on Nov 2, 2007 4:21:03 GMT
Well, I have some thoughts in line with what Aeros is saying and I'll try throw em up when my brain isn't being so flaky. I still think going to war is best for everyone, but that said...
Strange point for a hawk to bring up, but assuming we do go to war what about Hawk?
They seem a good bunch, and we might be leaving them in the lurch a bit. If the alliances do go to war perhaps some players who oppose it could join and fulfill our remit there.
|
|
|
Post by lemming on Nov 2, 2007 5:08:03 GMT
Ditto on what AeroS just said.
|
|
Shendemiar
Morkin Admin
Mmmm, free goo!
Posts: 6,751
|
Post by Shendemiar on Nov 2, 2007 5:41:21 GMT
For the record, Morkin has no constitution that we are peaceful, or democratic. We are peaceful and democratic by choice, not by definition. And Peacefulness doesn't mean we can't make anything preemptive.
Those taking responsibility can and should make decisions without having to set up polls. Majority is not always asked or needed.
Everybody is saying if Morkin decided something, they will follow, even against their will.
Well the thing here is, that Morkin did decide. (Or whats left of it anyway) We decided we will stand up against Digg. Not with happy hearts because the timing is lousy, but because it must be done.
We didn't say when and how, but its obvious it needs to be done soon, and soon is nowhere near with all this second guessing and undermining, and the moment is waning.
So, there will be a war.
It did not happen tonight, but it will happen soon. Then all you have to do is decide if you are Friends of Morkin or are you not.
|
|
Warliter
Morkin Admin
Baniter from M/MU
Posts: 814
|
Post by Warliter on Nov 2, 2007 6:56:25 GMT
I think you all need to decide whether you are happy with DIGG being in a position to Pull rank on us, because once Pantheon are gone thats what is going to happen. They know we have been assisting Pantheon so we are probably definately next on the target list.
We have a window of opportunity where we can join and reinvigorate Pantheon as said several times this window is waning, but once closed we will stand alone against the full force of DIGG when they come and they will come. The arrogance comes out in every post on the IK forums, especially the ones where Pantheon brings up a request to split.
|
|
Arminius
Morkin Admin
Ich bin Bl?cher
Posts: 4,148
|
Post by Arminius on Nov 2, 2007 7:46:11 GMT
BTW, we still have a peace treaty with Digg. We would have to break that at short notice, which would make all our diplomatic treaties pretty worthless.
If we're really going down the route to war then we should drop the treaty asap and at least allow a couple of days to pass before any attacks take place.
|
|
Warliter
Morkin Admin
Baniter from M/MU
Posts: 814
|
Post by Warliter on Nov 2, 2007 8:31:46 GMT
Whilst I think from my posts its clear that I am an advocate of going to war, I'm not an advocate of just jumping in to a large scale conflict without plans, Objectives and also, as Arminius pointed out, without removing things like PT's.
That said If we are going to drop our PT with DIGG, I think we should drop any treaties with all other parties outside the Morkin group.
If we only drop the PT with DIGG then we show our hand and intent, this will give time for DIGG to prepare and get Pain ready to join.
If we strike it must be en masse with no real pre-warning for anyone(inc Pantheon) so as to acheive the maximum effect
If we drop these treaties it must be done in one go to all non Morkin parties.
If we need to have a IGM conv with various parties(HAWK) then that should take place after dropping the PT's, then I would say plan until Monday and start attacks for Tuesday perhaps?
If we are not going to have war, then I think we need to consider what next as we will be the next target on DIGGS list and they will then probably have net 20-30% of Pantheon's isles.
I think the case for WAR is when not if
IMO there is absolutely no point in approaching DIGG on getting them to split, If I was DIGG and being told to split i'd give everyone 2 fingers, especially considering the size they are.
|
|
AeroS
Luxor Admin
Timmons[HAWK]
Posts: 1,138
|
Post by AeroS on Nov 2, 2007 11:07:05 GMT
Those taking responsibility can and should make decisions without having to set up polls. Majority is not always asked or needed. Everybody is saying if Morkin decided something, they will follow, even against their will. Well the thing here is, that Morkin did decide. (Or whats left of it anyway) We decided we will stand up against Digg. Not with happy hearts because the timing is lousy, but because it must be done. We didn't say when and how, but its obvious it needs to be done soon, and soon is nowhere near with all this second guessing and undermining, and the moment is waning. So, there will be a war. It did not happen tonight, but it will happen soon. Then all you have to do is decide if you are Friends of Morkin or are you not. I did not know that there was a supreme Morkin leadership that could make decisions outside of the general alliance membership that would bring all the alliances into a war regardless of the feelings of those in the alliances. This is a revelation that I had always suspected but was blissfully happy in my ignorance. Democracy and peace are nice to portray to the membership until it becomes inconvenient. Then its time to bring out Big Brothers supreme authority. Do we get to know the names on the overlord counsil or do we only get to deal with the mouthpiece of the Gods.
|
|
Shendemiar
Morkin Admin
Mmmm, free goo!
Posts: 6,751
|
Post by Shendemiar on Nov 2, 2007 11:09:12 GMT
Ever heard of representatives?
|
|
Arminius
Morkin Admin
Ich bin Bl?cher
Posts: 4,148
|
Post by Arminius on Nov 2, 2007 11:16:41 GMT
Sometimes admins have to make decisions in that way, just because there is no time to discuss everything. That's why they're admins. But taking the alliance into a war of this scale is not one of those decisions.
And even when taking a decision without consulting members, admins are accountable for that afterwards. This is one reason why I retired as a Morkin admin a while ago, because I felt that my decisions were not in line with the general opinion, though it seems that they were in the end (that was about putting the blame solely on Ashimar in the Makari incident).
There is no supreme leadership that exists in a position of absolute power and unaccountability. You might sometimes lose touch with the base, but you have seen last night that a few people speaking up against the rash decision were enough to halt it.
It is all a learning process. On co.uk there were about 15-20 of us, and it was possible to decide faster, and polls in the in-game forum made things a lot easier. Suddenly we're a big alliance (#3 and #9) and things have changed.
|
|
mmupatton
Morkin Admin
bl**dy beer pressure!
Posts: 1,453
|
Post by mmupatton on Nov 2, 2007 11:42:56 GMT
Ever heard of representatives? Wow - where is all this coming from? Before talking about representatives I think you should talk about elections. And I am not sure that's the right way to go, either. Admins in many other alliances are decision makers. The rest are just cattle and have to follow along. Those we refer to as Über-admins. That's why most other alliances fall apart when fighting a strong enemy. Admins in our alliances are those that have volunteered to make quick decisions when needed. When we are looking at carefully considered decisions, we don't need the quick decisions. We need to agree. Yeah, sure, we'll never get 100% pro or con. But 53% is not an impressive majority, either. 18 out of our members is a very very small group to decide the outcome.
|
|
Clausewitz
Luxor Member
Veni. Vidi. Vici. Mori.
Posts: 1,437
|
Post by Clausewitz on Nov 2, 2007 12:37:33 GMT
Let's not beat up Robert, guys. He's doing his best on several fronts, and doing them better than most of us would have or possibly could.
We're under stress. Several factors contribute:
1. A long campaign with the Orcs/Rahein, and we don't want to conceede those gains to DIGG so quickly.
2. The "hawks" believe that if we are going to succeed, we need to strike now - and our odds become increasingly difficult as Pantheon continues to fall. Hence, they're feeling pressure for quick action. "We're DIGG's next targets, anyways" is weighing heavily.
3. Some "doves" believe that such a fight is hopeless, and aren't willing to exit the game just yet without trying diplomatic approaches first.
Any Admin, looking at all of the above, considering the various opinions, facts, and sentiments, does not have an enviable job. Was Robert hasty to make the call for war? Sure, possibly. And he apologized and redacted it - what more can anyone ask?
We're all in this together. Whatever we do, we're all in this together. And everyone is doing their best. What more can you ask than for everyone to be honest, do their best, and have some fun in the process?
Let's set aside what's done, and move forward constructively. Keeping in mind, of course, that we're all in this with the same priorities: having fun and maintaining our sense of honour.
Second-guesses and veiled insults accomplish nothing, and truly sap the fun out of this game.
|
|
blazed
Luxor Member
Posts: 606
|
Post by blazed on Nov 2, 2007 12:56:17 GMT
I agree Clauz. Lets be honest Shen has had a lot of influence in what we are today, and we owe him a lot! We wouldnt be anywhere near what we are without him.
I will always hold the old Morkin members a step above us in luxor because in the end we decided to join them, not them us, they have nothing but my respect...
|
|